Discussion about this post

User's avatar
MichaelKiwi's avatar

LOTS OF RAMBLING, sorry

Sorry for not writing out my fuller thoughts earlier. I did have it in the back of my mind, but clearly procrastinating was beneficial, as you've captured a lot of my thoughts in your edits. I certainly agree that ranked Condorcet methods are the best theoretically. Certainly there are some complexity concerns as you say, but I agree that it's an overcomable problem. With a strong publicity campaign, people can understand that the Condorcet winner is the one that beats every other candidate in a 1 on 1. Thanks for the great article, and I think we're much closer to on the same page now.

About score voting, I think you're mostly getting at my concerns with "understanding why we’d expect it to work well is actually very complicated". Put a little differently, I think an important aspect of a voting system is that a voter, if they're well researched and have clear views, feels confident in their vote and understands how their vote is impacting the results. This is the key benefit (despite basically everything else being terrible) of FPTP. FPTP almost always leads to just 2 parties and you vote for the better one. If you decide to throw your vote away, at least you probably did it knowingly. Now it's still the case that in primaries some candidates might win and some might lose, so voting for your favorite is not always best. However, the nature of the system makes this pretty intuitive. The one downside of RCV is that it makes this a bit less intuitive. However, it is basically exactly the same thing. And voters still seem to understand this pretty decently (many people who ranked Murkowski ahead of Chesbro clearly understood this in Alaska). And everything else about RCV is strictly superior to FPTP. In score voting, however, it is not at all clear how you should vote even with a strong understanding of all the candidates and your own preferences. Imagine an election in a 60-40 D district. Since it's a left-wing seat say we get 1 R and 2 Ds running. With one candidate all the R voters unite and give their candidate 10s and the 2 Ds 0s (I know they shouldn't but let's say they have no preference among the Ds). Say the Ds are split exactly 30-30 and the true preferences of the voters is 10 for their favorite and 8 for their second. So a poll comes out and shows a 540-540-400 race. Now supporters of the Ds can see that the Ds are far ahead and it may seem that they should vote 10-0-0 instead of 10-8-0. Whichever D has more of their supporters willing to "effectively lie" will then be the winner. Unless of course way too many people think this way and then even the R could win. The system works better if everyone expresses their true preferences out of 10. However, here the side defecting from that more gets to win. That seems quite problematic. I don't know if scenarios like this would actually occur. However, I do think people would feel betrayed that their own vote was "wrong" and thus directly led to an outcome they don't like in a way they don't with our current system (choosing to give Romney a 0 leading to Trump winning over Harris and Romney in a three way may be no worse than voting for Harris instead of Romney in a Dem primary then leading to a loss that would have been a win, but intuitively it feels different). Don't get me wrong, their are clear big advantages to score voting. Romney has no chance of ever winning a Dem primary, but maybe he could win this three way and save us from Trump. In fact, I've kind of talked myself into thinking some of my objections are illogical (the same things happens with primaries). However, I certainly hate the idea of not knowing who I should vote for, and I think a lot of people would feel similarly. And I think this is a legitimate problem for a voting system. If people don't feel like their vote is pushing in the direction they want it to, I think they will hate the system. Imagine how people would feel if a majority vote Republican, but the Dems win because they're more unified in giving all their candidates 10s.

Another problem is the incentives for the candidate are really bad as well. What should Harris tell people to give Romney? Certainly her own interests don't align well with the country's. For all these reasons, I think, despite the complexity, I definitely favor ranked condorcet methods over score voting. Versus ranked choice voting, I agree score voting is better for primaries, but I think Alaska's top 4 and then RCV I might prefer to score, not totally sure though. Top 4 and then ranked condorcet sounds great though.

Some ways I think RCV is good and you underestimate it a bit as an improvement (although you're certainly right that it's far from perfect:

1. Getting to vote for your favorite candidate is healthy. It's good if people can vote for a Green/Libertarian/Independet/etc without throwing their vote away. Less people will get discouraged and hate the system even if it doesn't change the results.

2. Scenarios like the Montana/Nebraska senate races are much easier. You don't have to clear the entire party or get a candidate to run on dropping out. All you have to do is get more first place votes. I'm confident Bodnar can do that against Bankhead.

3. The primary electorate is effectively much more moderate and much higher turnout. You often effectively hold the primary in the general. If Mills and Platner were on the same ballot in the general much better chances for Mills to win (of course this doesn't work if you still have partisan primaries, but this is largely defeating the purpose, it needs to be like Alaska)

4. It's really crazy when people win primaries with 25% of the vote. Look at the Maine Dem governor primary, would be a disaster with RCV

5. Related to that it allows people to stay in when they're not viable without affecting the race in primaries if you are having them. This has two benefits. One you don't get cases like Porter and Mahan playing spoilers. But secondly voters are smart and mostly consolidate. However, if they don't have to this can really change the dynamics and maybe someone like Mahan wouldn't collapse as people desperately try to consolidate. This can A give you more information about true preferences and B maybe even change who wins if it's a collective action problem.

6. I think the problem of ballot exhaustion is probably a bit less than people say. A surprising number of partisans do in fact vote for candidate A and then don't show up when B wins the primary for the general. I'd like some numbers on this, but I'd bet people are overestimating how many are exhausting because they're lazy and or don't understand and how many just legitimately don't want to vote for the other person.

7. Total unknowns aren't a problem, which they have the potential to be in either score or even ranked condorcet though less so.

2 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?